HELEN SIMS talks to Wellington thesp Helen Moulder, currently appearing as Sister Aloysius in John Patrick Shanley’s Pulitzer Prize winning play Doubt at Circa Theatre until March 10.


All the characters in Doubt serve a representative function. What do you think your character, Sister Aloysius, represents?

Well, she seems to represent certainty. She’s like those teachers we all remember, those very straight down the line, seemingly quite harsh ones, not that all of our teachers were like that, but we’ve all got somebody like that in our past. But as the play progresses you find out a lot more about her, and in the end she confesses to having doubts, when she’s said she’s had her “certainties” all the way along. So it has been a very different character for me to play, although perhaps the person in “Wit” was a similar sort of person, a rather unloved, harsh sort of person.

Do you enjoy playing that sort of character at all?

I’m starting to. It is hard; I have found it quite hard. On opening night especially (when you were in) there was a lot of laughter, people found the comedy. But on some nights people don’t see it.

I think it’s a tribute to the way you played her, because she could be so hard and the audience could be very alienated and side entirely with Father Flynn. Her hard-line approach and attitude to change are difficult to sympathise with, but her ultimate impulse is to protect. It was interesting how different people felt about the 2 characters.

Yes, well last night there wasn’t a lot of laughter. It changes every night. Simon’s brother in law (Simon Ferry who plays Father Flynn) said to me afterwards, “Oh, I hated her”. He said he felt quite sure that the priest was not guilty, but he still had a few doubts. People seem to feel sure one way or another and will approach you afterwards to tell you so.

Yes, there was definitely a seed of doubt in my mind as to his guilt – but I guess that’s the point of the play?

Yes, that’s right. He had to go from the school. Mrs Muller is a fascinating character in that regard also – so shocking – she completely throws Sister Aloysius and brings a new perspective and dimension to the sense of right and wrong. She’s sacrificed a lot for her boy’s education and that’s the most important thing, it doesn’t matter what else happens. Tanea Heke plays it so well, I’m so glad we have her.

(We talk about the writer, John Patrick Shanley and the published version of the play)

Have you read the preface to the play? We wanted to put this in the programme but couldn’t fit it. (Reads) “John Patrick Shanley is from the Bronx. He was thrown out of St Helena’s kindergarten. He was banned from St Anthony’s hot lunch programme for life. He was expelled from Cardinal Spellman High School. He was placed on academic probation by New York University and instructed to appear before a tribunal when he wished to return. When asked why he had been treated in this way by all these institutions he burst into tears and said he had no idea. Then he went into the US Marine Corps. He did fine. He’s still doing ok.”

There did seem to be obvious resentment to hierarchy and authority – that may explain why!

Yes. The nuns (a group came to see Doubt and stayed for a discussion forum afterwards) said they found the play very difficult in this regard. They enjoyed it, and they laughed, but found it difficult. Both of them had been head mistresses. I think teachers would enjoy this play.

People in positions of authority often have to make difficult choices don’t they?

Shanley writes in the preface “Have you ever held a position in an argument past the point of comfort?” I think that is what Sister Aloysius does. She decides to go in a certain direction and just has to keep going, regardless of doubt.

I was reading a Time magazine article about extremist religious factions and the how that certainty is creating huge problems.

It is an interesting question – what happens when you are presented with a challenge to faith? Does it get stronger or weaker?

I think people prefer not to be confronted, People prefer just to believe, it gives them more comfort. That’s why right wing religions in America are booming. Any speaker that gets up and says “Well, I don’t know...” what use is that? You would be in a strange equilibrium. But I believe that’s the truth of the matter, that doubt is the healthy way to be and to protect that feeling of unsatisfactory-ness. I guess that is what happened to Sister Aloysius – she’s surprised that she starts to doubt, and she’d probably be a different person after this.

But she does get rid of Father Flynn from her school...

But she hasn’t gone far enough – if she was certain – he’s in another school. She wasn’t prepared to lose her job. Although, I suppose, if she had gone, what could she have done? She would have been branded a hysteric, as she says to Sister James “You’ll be branded an hysteric and transferred.” She says it has happened before, 8 years ago, but she had a different sort of priest in that school and they managed to get rid of the other priest.

Possibly not as popular as Father Flynn?

Yes, he’s made it very difficult. Everything in this play is – we’ve had to think about it all.

Did the cast ever sit down and discuss whether they thought Father Flynn was guilty or innocent?

No, we decided not to, not even to discuss it. We decided not to talk about it at all.

It would change the dynamic, wouldn’t it?

Well, I know that with the new cast in the New York show, it was said (in reviews) that the title should be changed to “Certainty”.

We do judge people, don’t we? Simon was saying the other night that it was like the jury service that he did. It was a child abuse case and Simon said the moment he (the accused) was brought out he thought, “He’s guilty”. He was glad he didn’t wind up on the jury.

Simon looks a lot more innocent than the man who plays Father Flynn in the States (on the cover of the published play). Far more likeable. That changes things.

Sister James also looks very innocent. She goes on an important journey in the play, but it is far more subtle.

Yes, as she says in one of the scenes, to Sister Aloysius, “I’m starting to understand you a little” and by the end I think she has understood.

I found one of the best moments to be when Sister Aloysius challenges her innocence. We prize innocence and scorn it at the same time.

Yes, she says (reads) “If I could Sister James, I would certainly choose to live in a world of innocence. But innocence can only be wisdom in a world without evil. Situations arise and we are confronted with wrongdoing and the need to act.”

It is interesting that scene is occurring between nuns, who live removed from the world.

Ray Henwood came to the forum and he said that the only criticism he had was that he did not think a nun in 1964 would have done this. I said, Well, that may be true but you have to remember that did not join at age 17, she was probably about 40. She’d been married and out in the world. She’s not your ordinary nun. She was probably a teacher already and just wanted to continue teaching. And her surname is Beauvoir, which was Jackie Kennedy’s maiden name, so in a class system in America that also means something.

And yet she feels bound by the restrictions of hierarchy.

Yes, she goes on and on about it and about Father Flynn being her superior. She asks Sister James “What do you think that sermon was about?” When she says she doesn’t know and suggests asking him she says that she could not ask him because he’s her superior. Except, in the next scene when he comes to tea she asks him, “What did you write down?” and questions him about his ideas for the sermon. Every scene seems to influence the next. Father Flynn says they should be friendlier to the parishioners, a suggestion she rejects, then Mrs Muller comes in and she attempts to be more friendly. She moves her chair in front of her desk and shows her the little transistor radio. I still haven’t worked out the meaning of that radio fully. It shows she was married and she’s keeping in touch with the world. Then I found out from the nuns that radios were banned in the 1960s, so maybe it shows a little rebellion. She’s not out of touch at all. All the characters have their foibles.

Some people have really focused in on the sexual abuse in the play. One review I read here drew parallels to the Christchurch crčche case – do you think the implications are that clear?

I suppose in the debate and divide in the community. But you could draw all kinds of parallels – Sister Aloysius could be President Bush going into Iraq. I don’t think the abuse itself (as to whether it actually happened or not) is the important thing in the end.

Shanley has said the play is structured around several major events – directly the assassination of President Kennedy, which is the backdrop against which the play was set, and indirectly 9/11, which is the backdrop against which the play was written. In NZ we’re not as close to those events, do you think this play would resonate with American audiences differently?

Yes, I think 9/11 knocked the stuffing out of them. As did the murder of a much beloved President. But that was an internal thing. When you get something from outside that attacks you it’s even more shocking. I lived in New York and those building are a huge part of the landscape, you use them to orientate yourself. So many people work in those buildings – it was actually amazing that more people didn’t die. As for the play, at the forum many people were very interested in the issue of doubt, around any issue, not just connected 9/11.

What about doubts in regard to faith? If you are not religious then it is a different play to watch I think.

Yes, Simon and Angela were brought up Catholic. They have found this an interesting play to do. The nuns that came along loved Simon and said he was like many priests they knew. But they also recognised my character – the nun and teacher who the children are uniformly terrified of. I was a teacher, but more the nice Sister James type and I was useless! But another teacher was strict and the children loved her!
There’s a fine line between being likeable and hard-line.

It’s been a phenomenally popular play in America hasn’t it?

Yes, very popular. The New York version is touring now, it’s been all over. They’re making a film of it as well. We’ve had Americans in who have been excited to see it is playing here. Doubt is spreading!

I was wondering about your solo work – you have been putting solo tours on for some time, but they seem to be on the rise generally – why do you think that is?

You have to generate your own work – there are a lot of people wanting to be in the business. It’s the only way if you want to keep working. It’s been marvellous for me; really, it’s meant I can have a regular job. When I’m not in a play I can just plan a little tour. I’m off to Otago and Southland after this. I’m doing the Wanaka Festival of Colour. I’ve got another project coming up after that, with an orchestra – using my comedy character Cynthia Fortitude. It’s a totally different show, with a chamber orchestra of about 30 people.

They (drama students) do those solo shows at Drama School, and increasingly seem to be developing them into longer shows. Small communities can only really afford one person and they so appreciate you coming.

Contemporary American drama seems to be thriving lately, whereas we haven’t seen that here – do you think a lack of finances is a major limitation?

It certainly is financial. Even at a big theatre like Circa you can’t put on anything that’s got too many people in it, unless they get some special sponsorship, because of the co-operative nature – people just aren’t getting paid enough.

Do you think theatre is healthy in New Zealand?

Yes, I think so; it is just a different environment. We also get a lot of visitors coming along to plays while they are in town, wanting to see New Zealand theatre.

It’s taken 2 years to get the play (Doubt) on here in Wellington, you have to do things quite a bit in advance.

We get interrupted by some people dressed as sheep being herded past the windows at Circa... I thank Helen and wish her the best of luck for the rest of the season of Doubt and her upcoming projects.